The Saturn-Neptune Relationship

Some of us can relate to dreaming the “impossible dream” as was weaved in the musical in 1965 and film, Man of La Mancha in 1972.  Those that can or do relate to the song could very well have a strong Saturn-Neptune signature. When Joe Darion, who wrote the song Impossible Dream, took his first breath in 1917, Saturn and Neptune were in a window of conjunction.

In Shamanic Astrology, the combination of these 2 planets, Saturn and Neptune, represent “Spirit into Matter” or could be looked at as matter solidifying spirit or spirituality in general.  Daniel Giamario, the originator of Shamanic Astrology, shares that this combination is intended to “Convert ideals into practice/reality” or to “prevent ideals from manifesting into reality.”

What began in late 2015 and continues through 2016, Saturn moved into a dynamic alignment (what other astrologers call a “hard aspect”) with Neptune.  Astrologically-speaking, it is a signature of this year along with at least 2 other alignments.  From our perspective looking up into the sky, Saturn and Neptune are in a waning square, which means the planet Saturn is roughly 90 degrees from Neptune for over a year.  If we could see Neptune with the naked eye, Saturn would be near the top of the sky while Neptune rose in the east.  It won’t be until 2025-26 when Saturn (orbiting much faster than Neptune) moves within the width of one’s fist (10 degrees in the sky) of Neptune, effectively forming a conjunction.

But in the meantime, in the here and now of 2016, this Saturn-Neptune alignment appears in the midst of conflicts of different beliefs and ideals.  In this age of radicalism and extremism, this cycle could very well make or break any molds of ideal societies conjured up since 1989-1990 (also in part with Uranus’ revolutionary and “breaking-apart” essence), when this incarnation of the Saturn-Neptune dynamics was last in a conjunction, then in a square relationship in 1998-99 and opposition in 2006-07.

What is Saturn and Neptune in Astrology?

This pairing of Saturn and Neptune can be channeled in ways that can be explosive in ways where the resolve of those with the ideals meet an equal if not greater force of others with powerful ideals.  Where Saturn brings something into form or reality like a principle or set of rules with hard edges but also solid and with considerable weight.  Whereas Neptune’s impulse in the realm of dreaming, without any boundaries and an area of astrology where the heart meets the spirit.  Neptune bears some semblance with innocence, magic and youth compared to the “old man or woman” of Saturn, an energy of reality where results, systems, gravity, temperament, laws and order.

Saturn’s expression (and currently in Western Astrology) over the last 3000 years or so has been viewed more from the lens of power, fear, judgment and control.  Saturn’s original impulse, going back many thousands of years prior to that had more to do with the creation of civilization by bringing in the knowledge of plants and farming, teaching of the nature of order, astronomy, resources, architecture, time and an understanding of the relationship between the humanity and the cosmos (including Earth).

Neptune has been viewed in Western Astrology as the planet of illusion, the loss of reality, confusion, the fantasy-realm, a disconnection from the tangibility of life and the blurring of lines between dreams and the waking conscious self.  While having less judgment around Neptune, it has been seen as negative in some senses because of its impact on our left-brained Western Culture (almost in the same way that Mercury Retrograde has been viewed by the mainstream).  Neptune is really more about teaching us our connection to spirit or the celestial realm, including dreams (lucid and creative dreaming too) and the knowledge that our consensus reality is simply one version of reality and that the dream-realm and mystic dimensions have their own gravity in our lives and not simply dismissed as fantasy 100% of the time.

In Shamanic Astrology, the planets are viewed as having an essence and that essence operates without our human identification of “good” or “bad”.  Saturn represents “growth through limits and boundaries” and “taking responsibility for yourself” as an initiation and the “operating manual” and the “rules associated with the ruling culture of the time” (Daniel Giamario, The Shamanic Astrology Handbook pg 99).

Neptune in Shamanic Astrology brings in “new visions and the new dreams, but it operates through the creative use of confusion, representing what is (useful) about an identity crisis.”  As Giamario states about Neptune, “it is important to understand that not knowing, not having all the answers, and feeling confused is precisely the intent.” (pg 102)  Because not having the answers can be seen as losing control or looked at as a handicap in some ways, Neptune is typically viewed as having a negative impact in world or in people’s lives.  Confusion is not something “bad”, it is more of an arena ripe for new visions and dreams to enter the world.

Neptune is also a place where all possibilities exist at once but none are taking form or at least permanent in solidity while Saturn is where a commitment is made to one or a few potentials and bringing those potentials into a structure.  Anytime I think of Saturn and Neptune, I think of Taylor Ellwood’s work with the concept of “0” and “1” (as he was in turn inspired by William G Gray’s work).  Ellwood writes, “For me, the state of Zero also represents all possibilities and none, as well as being faceless.  You cannot have an identity when you are Zero because in being Zero you are both nothing and everything.” (Taylor Ellwood, Space/Time Magic pg 118).

Dissolving and Manifesting is what can take place in a Saturn-Neptune process.  Neptune can “dissolve” our understanding and mental (and sometimes physical) structure of “reality” where Saturn can bring form to the dream or perhaps what was once considered an illusion or fantasy.  What one “believes” can turn that into a structure, something tangible and very real (like the structure of a religion or spiritual practice that works) OR Neptune can act as a dissolving agent to that structure where the belief in something.  Skepticism and doubt can come in a healthy way to assist in furthering a person’s purpose or that of a collective/culture.

Converting Ideals into Practice and/or Reality

Miguel de Cervantes, author of the famous book, Don Quixote, was the inspiration for the musical and movie, Man from la Mancha.  In November and December of 2015, during the time when Saturn moved into exact alignment in the form of a square with Neptune, a dream of sorts did come into reality, though not in the way Cervantes probably dreamed.  A full 5 exoplanets were named for Cervantes and his characters and approved by the IAU.  The full list of exoplanets named and stars they orbit can be found here: http://nameexoworlds.iau.org/names. 

Coming back down from the heavens above, one of the more interesting relationships between Saturn and Neptune aspects is in the form of idealisms or “extremist” views.  The origins of the Islamic State as an organization has its roots placed in 1999 and named Jama’at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad while Saturn and Neptune were in an astrological square.  Another well-known extremist organization called Al-Qaeda was formed in 1988-89 when Saturn and Neptune were in conjunction in the sign of Capricorn.  Both of those organizations represent a “idealism” of Islam and specific and a hard-line “sharia law”, which ignores most laws created by Western cultures and other so-called first-world nations.  And now we find ourselves in another Saturn-Neptune initiation (2015-2016) as a collective so this particular seed could find itself collapsing under the weight of other idealisms and structures or evolve into something else.

In other parts of the world, the Cold War was coming to an end in 1989 as the communist party fell “out of favor” in Poland, East Germany, Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia with the Belin Wall coming down in November of that year.  The structured philosophies of the Soviet Union that held since WWI (during a Saturn-Neptune conjunction) were rapidly dissolving.  The Western capitalistic and democratic philosophies were reaching new highs in their spread across the globe, which in part helped end Soviet framework of communism.

Richard Tarnas, writing in Cosmos & Psyche, writes further on the ending of the Cold War.  As the governments of Eastern Europe were shifting away from communism during the Saturn-Neptune conjunction, Tarnas writes of the effect of Saturn-Neptune initiation as it showed in the Warsaw Pact, “ . . . loss of faith that is no longer viable, waking as if from a dream, lucidly recognizing consensus madness, demystifying the received version of reality – as in the collective disillusionment with communism that rapidly spread through the peoples of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union during the Saturn-Neptune conjunction of 1987-91, in the triple conjunction with Uranus.” (pg 475).

Preventing Ideals from Becoming Reality or being Manifested

An example of how ideals can be prevented from manifesting took place in China in 1989 at Tiananmen Square in Beijing.  After a few weeks of protests by tens of thousands of students, China’s

military was ordered to disperse the crowds and it became a massacre with thousands of casualties.  The students wanted freedom of speech, freedom of the press and other democratic ideals.  During that time, the students created a “Goddess of Democracy”, which was taken down and destroyed quickly by China’s military.  This all happened during the height of the Saturn-Neptune conjunction.

In this case above, China had an opportunity to learn the emerging wisdom of youth and adjust to the new circumstances instead of reacting through their buried fears and inability to deal with their shadow.  A select group of people decided to hold onto the illusion of power and turn their fear upon the vocal students who wanted to breathe new life into the People’s Republic.  I recall watching the events on TV as a teenager and initially thought a wonderful event was taking place before the violence began.

However, since that time, China has loosened a little in its ideals of their version of communism.  A middle class has formed and capitalism has reached many sectors of Chinese society, especially in the urban centers.  But through the years, I have read many articles and news reports about this new results-driven government.  They primarily saw the benefit of profit of capitalism without realizing harmful consequences on the people and the environment.  While beneficial changes are coming to China, it likely won’t come until the next Saturn-Neptune conjunction of 2025-26.

Saturn-Neptune for us on a Personal Level

Impossible dreams can sometimes become possible as is the case in point with Abraham Lincoln, who was born in 1809 during a Saturn-Neptune conjunction in Sagittarius.  He was also born when Mercury was in the sign of Pisces (conjunct Pluto) and dynamic aspect (in the form of a square) with Neptune and Saturn.  Lincoln genuinely cared and expressed enormous empathy during his life and well-noted for it during his presidency.  He forgave the Confederacy while pushing ahead to forge a nation based on the dream of real equality between people.  His presidency was nearly fully encompassed by a Saturn-Neptune Opposition that was still within 15 degrees of exact during 1865.

Tarnas writes in the same book, Cosmos & Psyche, that Lincoln “. . . was, essentially and poignantly a “man of sorrow and reconciliation”. (pg 478).  Lincoln truly felt the loss of humanity during the Civil War that ravaged the United States. Tarnas writes how Lincoln had “lifelong suffering from intense depression and grief.”  Abe Lincoln managed to bring his dreams, at one time impossible, into a reality when he became President.  The work on his soul that he had to endure in order to get to implementing ideals into the third dimension was high as he experienced the deaths of 3 of his 4 children.

But it was his belief that slavery could be abolished and the platform he ran on before being elected.  Hi idealism showed up through his Aquarius Rising and Sun and knowing how to lay the groundwork for bringing those ideals into form where his Capricorn Moon served his life purpose in supporting his Rising Sign.  But it was Saturn-Neptune that allowed him to channel the sorrow, grief, empathy and depression into something tangible and permanent as a President.

Another person born during a dynamic Saturn-Neptune aspect was Edwin Hubble in 1889 (I’m sure most people reading this article know of the “Hubble Telescope” orbiting the Earth). Hubble was the person who, with a powerful telescope, helped humanity of this current age understand that we live in one galaxy among billions.

Early in Hubble’s life, while highly fascinated by astronomy, he was not able to turn that into something beyond the dream of doing it due in large part to the desires of his father.  It was only after his father’s death when Edwin was 23 and 24 did he begin to look at his options for the future. At this time, Edwin was experiencing a Jupiter Return (when Jupiter returns to the same astrological sign as when a person was born).  It was soon after that time, when Hubble became a professional astronomer.

Prior to Hubble’s discovery, galaxies were thought to be “nebulae”.  (In fact, I have a book published in 1903 called Lessons in Astronomy that shows just that).  At the time of Hubble’s discovery, very few people believed that we lived in a Universe bigger than the Milky Way.  Hubble was met with a lot of opposition of his theories and beliefs about his findings, but he published his findings anyway in 1924 and 1925.  He eventually found support from various areas, including from Albert Einstein himself as it supported his theory of general relativity.

In both cases, their lives bloomed later in life and it took them a while to find their tune and live the dream they seeded early in life.  I also was born in an almost exact Saturn-Neptune opposition (aspecting my natal Sun, Moon and Mars) in late 1971.  Being a dreamer come with the territory and in many cases feeling the emotional weight of those around you all the way to bearing burdens against those who say “it can’t be done”.  In my case, it was the relationship to the stars and planets where I left a secure insurance career to become a full-time Shamanic Astrologer.  Many couldn’t understand any rational reason for me doing it but the biggest road block was within my being and stepping out to take a risk and trusting my path in life.

Opportunities

For those who have some level of Saturn and Neptune aspecting your personal planets (Mercury, Sun, Moon, Mars, Venus and Vesta) or the Angles (Ascendant, Descendant, Midheaven or Ic/Home & Roots) what I write is applicable to you.  Even if you don’t, knowing the nature of this ongoing relationship between the hard edges of reality and the formlessness of the dream world is well-worth it.

Daniel Giamario and Cayelin Castell created a teleclass specifically on this relationship (you can find it here http://shamanicastrology.com/neptune-saturn-3-teleclass-package).  They were able to elucidate the process of the relationship between the two planets and humanity very well, adding to the discussion that began long before Richard Tarnas wrote Cosmos & Psyche.

What is your “impossible dream”?  Is it so impossible?  Or is it the limits and boundaries we’ve placed upon ourselves thereby preventing us from living our dream?

You can watch Peter O’ Toole “sing” the Impossible Dream by clicking here

Or is it that the path is confusing, an unknowable and foggy vision of fantasy that can’t be believed?  Truly, anything is possible, or perhaps that is just my opinion.  After all, if you look at the last 150 years of humanity what impossible dreams became “possible” and truly manifested?  Countless, I imagine.

-Erik Roth

Thank you Daniel Giamario for your inspiration on the song, Impossible Dream!

Notes:

Shamanic Astrology was originally created by Daniel Giamario.  More information can be found here

Resources

• Shamanic Astrology teleclass on Saturn-Neptune square http://shamanicastrology.com/neptune-saturn-3-teleclass-package
• Shamanic Astrology Handbook
• Space/Time Magic by Taylor Ellwood
• Cosmos & Psyche by Richard Tarnas
• Wikipedia pages on Edwin Hubble, Abraham Lincoln and periods of time during Saturn-Neptune dynamic aspects